Author Topic: ஒரு கேள்வி...... ஒரே கேள்வி  (Read 29379 times)

udaya

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ஒரு கேள்வி...... ஒரே கேள்வி
« on: November 17, 2016, 08:09:35 AM »
தேவனாகிய கர்த்தர் , ஆதாமை படைப்பதற்கு முன், அவன் பாவம் செய்வான் என்பதை முன்கூட்டியே அறிந்திருந்தாரா ? இல்லையா ?

Stephen selvam

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Re: ஒரு கேள்வி...... ஒரே கேள்வி
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2016, 07:33:45 PM »
I hope you have discussed this in various threads.

udaya

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Re: ஒரு கேள்வி...... ஒரே கேள்வி
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2016, 09:34:26 PM »
Yes I did.....but no answer....hence this separate thread.

Stephen selvam

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Re: ஒரு கேள்வி...... ஒரே கேள்வி
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2016, 10:21:17 PM »
@Yes I did.....but no answer....hence this separate thread.

Then you will not get an answer even if you post a seperate thread.

Better pray and wait for his answer.

udaya

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Re: ஒரு கேள்வி...... ஒரே கேள்வி
« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2016, 01:48:59 AM »
@: Then you will not get an answer even if you post a seperate thread.

I was just expecting a "binary answer".........disappointment .

essuvabaskar

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Re: ஒரு கேள்வி...... ஒரே கேள்வி
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2016, 09:47:06 AM »
God knows everything yet to happen

udaya

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Re: ஒரு கேள்வி...... ஒரே கேள்வி
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2016, 08:50:24 PM »
He knowingly allowed sin to happen ?

arulksn

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Re: ஒரு கேள்வி...... ஒரே கேள்வி
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2016, 11:28:26 PM »
Binary answer...
Yes. He knew Adam will sin.
Yes. He knowingly allowed sin to happen.
What is the problem?

arulksn

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Re: ஒரு கேள்வி...... ஒரே கேள்வி
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2016, 11:35:37 PM »
Leave Adam. God created Lucifer long b4 He created Adam. He knew Lucifer will sin. Yet He created him and loved him. We can say that God still loves Lucifer even now. He respects individual's freedom of choice. Lucifer (satan), Adam, me, you and everyone.

udaya

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Re: ஒரு கேள்வி...... ஒரே கேள்வி
« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2016, 11:48:35 AM »
@ reply # 7 :

@: Yes. He knew Adam will sin.

Oh ....that's why He visited Eden to meet and curse Adam & co , after the sin !  .......right ?

@: Yes. He knowingly allowed sin to happen.

So that He can send his son ......right ?

@: What is the problem?

No problem sir , It is a relief to learn that people are started to think that Adam is not responsible for sin !

udaya

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Re: ஒரு கேள்வி...... ஒரே கேள்வி
« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2016, 11:49:16 AM »
@ reply # 8 :

@:God created Lucifer long b4 He created Adam.

Could you please tell me , how do you know that ?
How did you come to that conclusion ?

@:He knew Lucifer will sin. Yet He created him and loved him.

So He knew we too will sin , yet he loves us ! The sad part is He decided to punish whoever He loves :-(

@:We can say that God still loves Lucifer even now.

Yes , we can say anything sir. We can say GOD reluctant to destroy Lucifer , because he loves him , sir

@:He respects individual's freedom of choice.

What is that choice , may I ask you ?

arulksn

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Re: ஒரு கேள்வி...... ஒரே கேள்வி
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2016, 02:14:44 PM »
@Reply #10

//      @:God created Lucifer long b4 He created Adam.

        Could you please tell me , how do you know that ?
        How did you come to that conclusion ?
//

Dear friend, I will try to explain as much as I can. I am not able to give a shorter explanation that this. We can start a new thread, if we are going to further discuss this because it deviates from the original topic.

The word “Lucifer” is not mentioned anywhere in Tamil bible. But it can be found in other translations.

"How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!" - Isaiah 14:12 King James Version (KJV)

This says that Lucifer was in heaven. But he has fallen from there.
If he was in heaven earlier, then who and what was he?

Ezekiel also talks about him. Refer Ezekiel 28th chapter.
In these verses it says as if God speaks to Prince of Tyrus (தீருவின் அதிபதி). But is also refers to Lucifer. That is how prophetic books speaks in symbolism. We can understand it if we study Bible as a whole instead of a verse and a chapter here and there. It will take some time but we can get a bigger picture.

Ezekiel 28 : 13-16
13. நீ தேவனுடைய தோட்டமாகிய ஏதேனில் இருந்தவன்; பத்மராகம் புஷ்பராகம், வைரம், படிகப்பச்சை, கோமேதகம், யஸ்பி, இந்திரநீலம், மரகதம், மாணிக்கம் முதலான சகவித இரத்தினங்களும் பொன்னும் உன்னை மூடிக்கொண்டிருக்கிறது சிருஷ்டிக்கப்பட்ட நாளில் உன் மேளவாத்தியங்களும் உன் நாகசுரங்களும் உன்னிடத்தில் ஆயத்தப்பட்டிருந்தது.
14. நீ காப்பாற்றுகிறதற்காக அபிஷேகம்பண்ணப்பட்ட கேருப்; தேவனுடைய பரிசுத்த பர்வதத்தில் உன்னை வைத்தேன்; அக்கினிமயமான கற்களின் நடுவே உலாவினாய்.
15. நீ சிருஷ்டிக்கப்பட்ட நாள் துவக்கி உன்னில் அநியாயம் கண்டுபிடிக்கப்பட்டதுமட்டும், உன் வழிகளில் குறையற்றிருந்தாய்.
16. உன் வியாபாரத்தின் மிகுதியினால், உன் கொடுமை அதிகரித்து நீ பாவஞ்செய்தாய்; ஆகையால் நான் உன்னை தேவனுடைய பர்வதத்திலிருந்து ஆகாதவனென்று தள்ளி, காப்பாற்றுகிற கேருபாய் இருந்த உன்னை அக்கினிமயமான கற்களின் நடுவே இராதபடிக்கு அழித்துப்போடுவேன்.

Lucifer was a cherub (an elite category of angels). That is why he was in heaven earlier, before he sinned. After he sinned, he was sent out of heaven. There are other verses also like this.

I think you will accept that God created angels. So, God created Lucifer also.

God is a god of love. See the meaning of the wonderful name God gave him, Lucifer - “ son of the morning”. How can someone be a God, if he did not love his own creation?

arulksn

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Re: ஒரு கேள்வி...... ஒரே கேள்வி
« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2016, 03:42:46 PM »
@ Reply #9 and Reply #10

Sorry, not able to type in tamil. I use english. Pls tell me if I need to say in tamil.

It all depends how we perceive God. Each of us have different understandings about God.

I will try to explain what is my idea about God.
It fits well with God knowing that sin will happen before creation. It does not pose any problem with the fact, God went ahead and created us anyway even though he knew we will sin.

God is full of love. So He needed a family to share his love. To love and to be loved.
That is why he created angels and humans. (Angels first and then human beings).
God could have programmed all his creations to love him automatically. But it would be like living with a pre-programmed robot which says “I love you” every morning 6 o'clock. God can never get true love in that way.

But, He can create us (angels and humans) with a freedom of choice. To choose if we are willing to love Him or not. This way, He may get our love or He may not. But if He gets it, it will be the true love. So, He created us with a freedom of choice.

Not choosing to love God is sin.

Before sin, none of us knew what is sin. So, we may live happily for millions of years. But just out of curiosity, at some point of time, one of us will eventually start to think why should I love God. What will happen if I don't? What if I love myself more than God? Or I may want to love my wife more than God, just like Adam did.
Things may go fine for millions and millions of years. But since we have a freedom of choice and brain to think, this will definitely happen at some point of time. And this is when sin enters.

God knew this. Anyone wise will know this. But what can be done about it? Should he create everyone without freedom so that they don't sin?

But God in His infinite wisdom had a plan. If someone sins at some point of time, wages of sin is death. - Romans 6:23. Out of His love, he is willing to take the consequence of sin (death) on himself, so that we get a second chance. Now we know what is sin and the horrible nature of sin. And now we have the choice again to choose. To choose to love God or not.

If we choose correctly now, we repent and live forever. Once, this process done, everyone will know what sin is, and how bad it is. Now no one is going to sin again even though they are going to live eternally. Peace at last, my friend!

And if we choose badly now, we don't repent. We stand by our first choice. Now, I have chosen this, understanding fully about sin. God loves me, and He should respect me. This is my choice. And He gives me what I ask for. He loves me and wants me to live happily forever. But I ask for this not once but again knowing fully. He gives me the wage that I ask for.


Note:

// The sad part is He decided to punish whoever He loves //
It is not punishment, but wage (சம்பளம்). It is what we ask for. And he is not giving it happily or willfully. We are forcing Him to do it.

// No problem sir , It is a relief to learn that people are started to think that Adam is not responsible for sin ! //
If people think Adam is responsible for sin, then they are wrong. What would you and me do if we were placed in Eden instead of him. We may have done the same. Or We may not have. We don't know. But no surety that we would have not sinned the same way.
(I personally believe, I would have done just the same, what Adam did. :-)  )
It is easy to blame someone for our problems. Adam's choice is for him alone. My life is in my hands. It is going to be my choice. Nothing Adam did should be held responsible for my life.
In fact, sin was already there before Adam was created. Only, Adam didn't have a first hand idea about it. It was Lucifer who did it first (explained on Reply #11).

// What is that choice , may I ask you ? //
I think I have explained it my friend.

udaya

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Re: ஒரு கேள்வி...... ஒரே கேள்வி
« Reply #13 on: November 25, 2016, 08:48:04 AM »
Jehovah / Jesus is
the one who did the creation;
the one who led Israelites out of Egypt;
the one who gave the commandments to Moses
the one who talked with Abraham, Isaac, Jacob

OK.........

But........

Was He the same one who killed almost all during Nova times ?
[ if it is ' yes '.....then it is disturbing :-(  ]


@:In OT he was called Jehovah (YHWH) and in NT he was called Jesus.

BTW , I just want to bring to your notice that one member of this forum , (vijay Pushkin ) pointed out  , Jesus's original name was Yeshua and his explaination about how English writers manipulated 'ye' to 'j ' , ...in some of his replies.

Until now nobody has claimed Jehovah = Jesus !

udaya

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Re: ஒரு கேள்வி...... ஒரே கேள்வி
« Reply #14 on: November 25, 2016, 08:49:06 AM »
Regarding the " fallen angel " theory.....

You have cited Isaiah 14:12 , to show  "O  Lucifer " actually refers 'fallen Angel' ,  ....but verse 4 clearly points out that it is the king of Babylon .
By any chance , the king of Babylon could be the fallen angel ?

@:How can someone be a God, if he did not love his own creation?

True.

But , I yet to find OT God's love .

அன்பு சகலத்தையும் சகிக்கும். 1 கொரிந்தியர் 13 :7

கடவுள் , ஆதாமின் கீழ்ப்படியாமையை சகித்துக்கொள்ளாதது துரதிர்ஷ்டவசமானது.